So, I think I finally have a handle on the horrible secret I've been feeling I have that will never allow me to have a fulfilling marriage. And it's the only thing that makes me feel unmanly; not necking with a guy (long story), not that I like to cook or sew sometimes, not that I've gone folk dancing purely of my own accord. Ready for it?
I don't like lack of enthusiasm.
Regular readers already know a lot about this. I don't like rape. I don't fantasize about it. There is no secret forbidden thrill of "what if I could do this for real" when acting it out.
It goes further though. The real killer from my perspective is that if a woman isn't interested in me I likewise have no interest in her at all. I don't care what she looks like, it's irrelevant. You could line up every star of stage and screen and porn flick in a huge room and tell me "You can do whatever you want with them, they won't care a bit" and I wouldn't pay a dime to enter. If they were all perfectly conscious and capable of saying no but simply wouldn't because they thought it was just body mechanics, and they wouldn't regret anything that happened, and somehow there was nothing shady about the whole deal? I have no interest at all.
Words like "girly" or "gay" tend to be used to indicate unmanliness. I wouldn't associate this attitude with either group. But it feels profoundly unmanly to me. Men are supposed to want attractive women regardless of what the women want; we are just supposed to hold ourselves in check and be polite. I don't HAVE to hold myself in check, I don't want that at all.
There might be a temptation to think that I'm bragging about being the perfect guy, what every woman wants. I would have thought that once; not for a long time now. How much of women's fantasy is based on the woman being wanted despite her attitude? Why do the bodices get ripped in a bodice-ripper? So many of the women I know in meatspace have rape fantasies; actually every one of them that's told me one way or the other. They don't want to have them with a guy who would have zero sexual interest in them if they played hard-to-get. And in popular culture; when is the last time you saw a rom-com featuring a guy who doesn't fall for the girl until she shows interest?
That's why this makes me feel unmanly where nothing else does. There seriously aren't a lot of women who would object to me cooking or sewing or folk-dancing for a split second. There are a fucking metric buttload who would never feel like a woman with a man who didn't want their body as an object at all.
My question at this point is how many women would really, deep down, want a man who felt like I do?
Actually, your take on things sounds really refreshing. The only thing I hate more than being pressured for sex is having people insist that I enjoy being pressured for sex. (I mean, I do like and fantasise about things that superficially look like they're in the vicinity.)
ReplyDeleteHey, I never did take you up on that offer of written erotica... is it still good?
Rae, in the standard fantasy, I think the guy would WANT sex with you but would restrain himself from pressuring you; the difference with me is that I don't want it if it comes from pressure, (or artistry a la PUA). I should mention that I do still want it if it comes out of love and affection rather than desire; since there's very few cases where both spouses always feel desire at the same time, a loving marriage should sometimes include sex for love rather than desire.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'm in the right headspace for writing erotica now. If you want to tell me about what you're looking for, though, I'll start looking for an opportunity to write it. Might be good for me. :)
Nobody wants to be bothered when they don't want sex, but who really wants not to be wanted if it doesn't involve bother? Why would you want to be unwanted unless you think desire will come with bother, or out of sheer altruism wanting to free others of unrequited desire?
ReplyDeleteBut, perhaps, usually desire does come with bother, so maybe the lack of desire is forgiveable for the lack of bother?
Wanting the whole emotional aspect of a relationship isn't unmanly it is unboychildish. Popular culture has tried to equate the perpetually adolescent oaf as "manly", in order to denigrate true manliness.
ReplyDeleteRead more Heinlein, if you recognize yourself you aren't in a bad space. Lack of female recognition of such means you are looking into the wrong females.
Oh and all men like "applause" in bed.
I'm not sure. I feel like if anyone is seriously considering the possibility of violating my boundaries, things have already gone wrong. Wanting somebody who doesn't want you doesn't have to mean wanting to push past their boundaries, though, does it? It could just mean wishing they wanted you.
ReplyDeleteI feel like there are many ways of trying to seduce a person that boil down to presenting yourself favourably, rather than pressuring them. (When "artistry" is attractive to me is when it's about presenting your most appealing side.) I'm much more into people whose attitude says, "I'm so sexy; I offer myself to you" than I am to people whose attitude says "You're so sexy; I will try to get you". This doesn't feel like a desire for objectification to me.
I'm pretty bothered by the idea of altruistically letting somebody touch my body out of love. (For some reason, my brain draws a distinction between that and altruistically touching their body out of love, which I find OK.)
Emailed you about the erotica.
Odysseus: Thanks! You're right about pop culture; I guess this aspect is one thing that has a weird sort of hold on my mind, in that I feel unmanly about utterly rejecting it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Heinlein is part of the problem. Remember in Friday, where the heroine falls in love with a guy who participated in a gang rape of the heroine while he was an undercover agent infiltrating the gang, and the reason he gives was that she was just so attractive? And she thinks that's a compliment?
That was when I stopped reading any new Heinlein, just sticking with the stuff I'd read before and knew was OK.
Rae: I should qualify that the "you" in "Why would you want to be unwanted unless you think desire will come with bother, or out of sheer altruism wanting to free others of unrequited desire?" was generic not specific you.
ReplyDeleteI agree that if someone is seriously considering violating your boundaries, things are already wrong. The thing I think people would want is to be desired even when the desirer has no hope of reciprocation or fulfilment. Like when Galadriel is describing the temptation of the Ring in The Two Towers: "All shall love me and despair!"
The fact that so many guys are capable of getting turned on by (for instance) a paid lap dance from a bored stripper depresses the fuck out of me. The fact that so many guys (and a couple of women) have had sex with me while knowing full well that I wasn't really into it makes me want to punch people in the face.
ReplyDeleteThe ability to physically desire someone without regard for their opinions or agency does not strike me as manly; it strikes me as rapey. It explains why guys have repeatedly sexually assaulted me while I was asleep.
It's important to me to feel physically attractive; if my partner insisted that my outsides didn't matter and he was purely in love with my mind, I wouldn't like that. But I don't want to be an object. The handful of times that I've been getting intimate with someone and he said "you seem [distracted/in pain/gassy/etc.]...would you like to stop?" I felt a ridiculous surge of gratefulness and love.
TL;dr: yours is exactly the attitude I look for in a man. It's the perfect blend of appreciation for my body and my mind, and makes me feel safe, cherished, and loved. And I'm positive I'm not the only woman who feels that way.
I wonder whether you'd meet more suitable women if you specifically sought out dommes (and maybe switches)? Seems like dominant women would be over the whole bullshit idea that sexual assault is a kind of compliment...or maybe I'm just projecting here.
Two more things: 1) I have never had anything resembling the typical female "rape fantasy" - even before my bad experiences with men. My insistence on maintaining my bodily autonomy is part of my nature, not the result of trauma. So please don't think that all the women who want what you have to offer are ranty, angry, damaged bitches. :P
ReplyDelete2) I'm really glad you've had this epiphany about yourself! The epiphany itself makes me sad (you're denigrating yourself for being what I'd call the perfect catch!!!) but the point is, it's out now. You've dragged this little nugget of self-loathing up out of your subconscious and into the open where you can examine it and (eventually) SMASH it into dust. W00T!
You wanna borrow my hammer? :D
PerverseCowgirl, I'm not a bit afraid that "all the women who want what you have to offer are ranty, angry, damaged bitches." I'm afraid that all the women who want what I have to offer also want skinny, androgynous, pretty guys. You can see how they might be connected.
ReplyDeleteFirst I need to examine the epiphany and understand why it might be unpopular or unmanly, and understand the feelings of those who think so. Then, I suspect, it will probably go much the same way as comments about virginity did in college: defiance.
Mousie -
ReplyDeleteWould it be fair to rephrase your post as that your sexual interest depends on your perception that you are sexually desirable by your partner?
If it helps I'm... truly and genuinely confused about why that attitude would be problematic? I mean, you've done a good job explaining where you got the idea and how it's been reinforced, but I have a really tough time viewing it from my own perspective. The idea of being desired is good but the idea of a man having little control over it to the point it was satisfying to him to run roughshod over me makes me fantasize about self-defense, not sex.
ReplyDeleteMy experiences with men have been nearly entirely positive- none of the negative ones were intimates- and I've never had anything that even remotely resembled a rape fantasy. It's definitely not a standard feature of female psychology.
I'd second what Cowgirl said about maybe looking for more dominant women, and also add that your sample may be biased; we all choose our friends and intimates, they're never random. You've mentioned before that "protector" is part of your identity- maybe some of the people who trust and feel comfortable with you are, on whatever level, looking for one?
I'm afraid that all the women who want what I have to offer also want skinny, androgynous, pretty guys. You can see how they might be connected.
ReplyDeleteI see what you're saying, but there are so many different traits in the world that there's room for all combinations. Just because certain things often go together doesn't mean they always go together. And for what it's worth I'm pretty sure my thing for girlyboys isn't innate, but comes directly from my internalized misogyny and emotional baggage. People often fetishize what they're afraid of; I'm afraid of seeming feminine and tiny and weak.
And if I recall correctly, LabRat in fact has a preference for the beefy manly-man look. So there.
OrphanWilde,
ReplyDeleteWould it be fair to rephrase your post as that your sexual interest depends on your perception that you are sexually desirable by your partner?
That wouldn't be accurate. I appreciate other motives, such as love, or at low moments pity. In really low moments money doesn't seem like such a bad motive either.
PerverseCowgirl and LabRat, right now I'm trying to make a point of not looking for any kind of woman. For the future, I don't think a dominant woman is likely to be for me, for a number of reasons. Except in play context I find any attempt to dominate me unspeakably annoying and entirely without appeal on any level. When, say, looking at an online profile, I am not yet playing and thus I tend to find domme's profiles unspeakably annoying. It makes me want to run up a Gadsden flag. (Ironically in play context I would be happy to be tread upon if my partner got something out of it, though it's not one of my kinks.)
ReplyDeleteIn play context I am a switch and would feel unloved if I were always the one in a submissive role; submission is to me a way of expressing the depth of my love and desire and I want to feel it returned the same way. I find women's voluntary submission to me to be the sexiest thing in the world - but I don't want to take it, I want her to give it freely on her own, as I will.
I look for switches, like me, but tend to be contacted by submissives, who in two cases briefly changed their FetLife profiles to switch when I explained what I was into. Not sure what to do about that.
"maybe some of the people who trust and feel comfortable with you are, on whatever level, looking for one?"
I am certain this is correct. Not sure what to do about that either; certainly I'm not going to stop trying to help and protect people for the sake of attracting better dates.
Thank you all very much for commenting! I know I'm arguing a lot here, but you are still helping me with your comments!
ReplyDeleteFUCK I just lost a long-ass comment. Let me try this again:
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with a woman liking to feel protected and safe, nor is there anything wrong with you being a protector. The problem is women who simultaneously like to feel safe and unsafe, depending on the context. So you just need someone a bit more consistent in her desires.
If memory serves, both of your ex-wives were either still married to other people or freshly divorced when you started taking an interest in them; that would probably be a pretty huge factor. A lot of chicks on the rebound are going to gravitate toward the most "safe" and stable guy they can find, simply because their life is in such a state of upheaval that they need to feel grounded. Been there, done that, repressed my kinks in order to better get along with the guy. :P
Try to make sure you're not gravitating toward damsels in distress; if you're a natural protector, it's probably all too easy to become interested in someone because they seem to need your help and you like feeling useful. When you're ready to date again, look for people whose shit is already fully together. Your protective and nurturing side will come in handy sooner or later; just don't base a relationship on it. I don't know if you've made that mistake in the past, but all the basic ingredients seem to be there so I thought I'd better say something just in case.
And I have to mention that dominant women aren't all assholes, nor do we all want to be the boss 24/7. I mean, it's moot, since you've stated that you want a switch, but I had to get that out there...for obvious reasons. :P
I just lost a long-ass comment
ReplyDeleteThat's happened to you a few times. I recommend typing out your long-ass comments in a text editor like Notepad or something. That's what I do avoid losing them, anyway.
If memory serves, both of your ex-wives were either still married to other people or freshly divorced when you started taking an interest in them; that would probably be a pretty huge factor.
True and untrue; my first wife never dated anyone but me (second woman I dated) but it turned out she was more or less looking to me to save her from imaginary demons, so, kind of similar protector/rescuer role.
Try to make sure you're not gravitating toward damsels in distress; if you're a natural protector, it's probably all too easy to become interested in someone because they seem to need your help and you like feeling useful.
Yes! Also, "damsels in distress" express attraction to me more strongly than women not in distress do; between my poor self-image and my kinking on volition, you can see why that would be a huge factor.
And I have to mention that dominant women aren't all assholes, nor do we all want to be the boss 24/7.
Yeah, I can tell that from knowing you online. You and Ozymandias in the past are the only dominants I read though. You two are awesome but mostly I do get the impression that they're assholes. Sorry. I particularly remember one misspelled, grammatically incorrect post wondering why other doms were so dumb.
And, PC, I've kind of suspected that if I saw one of your online dating profiles without knowing you first, I would not be drawn. (Having known you first, of course, I totally wish you wanted and I could give a demonstration of my begging and cunnilingus skills. ;) )
I totally wish you wanted and I could give a demonstration of my begging and cunnilingus skills.
ReplyDelete...But not simultaneously because it's rude to talk with your mouth full. :D
Why do you think you wouldn't be drawn to a dating profile of mine? What sorts of things do you picture me writing that would put you off? (I'm not offended at all, just curious.)
To clarify, I wasn't so much meaning to suggest that you retailor your friends group to make it more dateable, or even specifically go after dominants as dates, as suggest that you be aware of the patterns and how they might be influencing your ideas; if women who are drawn to your "guardian" personality are also more likely to have other ideas about and desires from masculinity, that doesn't say something about women so much as it does about those women. And this is all about both changing your self-image and your image of your future relationship possibilities.
ReplyDeleteEveryone needs protecting and nurturing from time to time, that side of you will never go to waste in a relationship.
To give you an idea, I'm drawn to "guardian" type men- but I'm not looking to be protected (at least not full time, when I can do that just fine for myself), I'm looking for a mirror of the traits I value in myself. I want a partner whose traits I admire and respect, not someone to protect me, and a man who wanted someone to take care of as part of their relationship dynamic would inevitably be disappointed.
PerverseCowgirl said, Why do you think you wouldn't be drawn to a dating profile of mine?
ReplyDelete*oh crap why did I say that what do I know about it oh crap*
Well, it's an impression I got from some of your early posts, and/or comments on the Pervocracy, to the effect of you were annoyed by guys who you met through your online profile(s) who were not really very submissive.
First let me describe what I've seen on other domme's profiles, a huge list of negatively-phrased, you-are-not-worthy, do-not-contact-me-if disqualifiers, and standing in for a positive, "I am a Goddess that would blow your mind if I deigned with My unparalleled skills at stamp collecting and standing around, but I will almost certainly not deign to. Do not imagine you would be permitted to lick any of My stamps."
Basically I expect any domme's profile to come off at least a little like that; it seems like that's just how it's done.
LabRat said, suggest that you be aware of the patterns and how they might be influencing your ideas....I'm looking for a mirror of the traits I value in myself. I want a partner whose traits I admire and respect
ReplyDeleteAnd the very first thing to be aware of, that this made me notice, is that I automatically think that a woman who mirrors the traits I value in myself is too good for me and will find a much better man. Which doesn't make any sense unless you assume EITHER men are on average morally better so they have to settle for less, which is not what I assume, OR women get an extra 100 value points besides the traits men have for being made of sugar and spice and everything nice, which is what I assume. And also, I think, what the subs who are attracted to the domme profiles described above assume in more exaggerated form than I.
you were annoyed by guys who you met through your online profile(s) who were not really very submissive.
ReplyDeleteWell, yeah...it's frustrating when a potential suitor lies about any aspect of who they are. I'd be equally annoyed if a guy said he liked cats in order to win my favour and then turned out to be indifferent to them.
Not to mention the guys who aren't specifically submissive but have this huge hunger to try "kinky stuff" - any kind of kinky stuff - so they can feel all worldly and experienced. My sexuality is not a tourist locale for boys to wander through, oohing and ahhing at how exotic everything is.
Anyway.
I actually have the wording of my last profile saved (the one through which I met Minx). I'm totally gonna email it to you now so you can see how overbearing and assholish I'm not. :D
I went out of my way to use positive wording only; negative profiles are sad and offputting, and I have a theory that they don't effectively screen people because the human brain doesn't retain the word "not". And although I did make a list of what I wanted, I also made sure to list what I have to offer.
I'm sure my profile wouldn't have attracted you as a suitor, but I could see you messaging me platonically...maybe.
Basically I expect any domme's profile to come off at least a little like that; it seems like that's just how it's done.
Maybe this is one advantage to my never having joined my local kink community; I have no blueprint for how such things are done. Although if the blueprint called for the level of assholery you've described here, I'd've torn it up anyway.
I have seen PerverseCowgirl's old profile and it is not overbearing and assholish or otherwise like what I described. :)
ReplyDeleteI think negative profiles do not effectively screen people because people who are jerks do not think any of it applies to them, and people who are not jerks are put off by all the negatives. I do not know that jerks can be screened, only nice people can be screened.
My OKC profile is under the same name I use here, if you're curious or want to offer critiques.